DIFFERENTIALS: "to weld or not to weld..."

Post by **dr.occa** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:54 pm

* remember, this is not a discussion on "which is better: welded or LSD" it's about welding or not welding your diff when you can't afford an LSD or in other words - "stay open diff and try to drift until you get an LSD or weld and drift until you can afford an LSD" make sense everyone? good.

Starting up a discussion on welding/not welding differentials.

Welding a differential is the preferred method of obtaining "LSD" on a budget.

While many swear by it, there are many who advise against it.

Pine in on the subject and give us your reasons why you're For/Against welding your RWD differential.

I'm for welding the diff if you haven't the funds for a quality LSD replacement unit.

There are a lot of people driving at drift/gymkhana events with welded diffs pushing 100+ hp who haven't complained and swear by the weld-technique. I've observed the positive outcome on track and in action.

I've also observed broken axles on an 86 but the main cause of it was an incorrect axle installed to begin with i.e. zenki axle installed in a kouki diff (zenki slightly smaller in diameter than that of its younger brother kouki). resulted in stripped splines. now, the diff itself did not break but just acted like an open diff with that stripped axle shaft. One other colleague actually had an axle break with the spline piece still lodged in the diff. easy fix: put in a replacement axle. open diff 86 axles are a dime a dozen at your local junkyard.

what does occur is on corners, the diff will be attempting to turn the inside wheel the same number of revolutions as the outside wheel or vice versa. this is what causes that "chirping" usually indicative of a welded diff. while spirited grip driving will increase chances of pre-mature failure, drifting/gymkhana on the other hand will not due to the reduced amount of surface to tire contact.

pipe in and give us your thoughts.

hvguy · Post by **hvguy** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:26 pm

From what I have herd, welding a diff is a handicap.

lol, not sure why.

but, I have seen online where drifters were daily driving their caa around town in rain or shine, and it either slides out from under them, or while going around a corner, they either accidently drift, or get crazy understeer and dont have enough time to react by pulling the E-brake.

I'm not for welding a diff, unless you have a heavy front end, and are on a budget.

me however, I'm going to save my bills, and visit the junkyard when I can. Buy an LSD and replace the clutches and bearings and call it a day

Post by **CBR_TOY** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:04 pm

when i first started drifting i was all about the welded for expense reasons.....

now, with some knowledge, i'm saying lsd is the better. they are rebuildable and have more aftermarket options such as tomei, kaaz, and trd to name a few. plus you have more options such as 1, 1.5, or 2 way depending on application and use.

o.g.darkdrifter · Post by **o.g.darkdrifter** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:55 pm

CBR_TOY wrote:when i first started drifting i was all about the welded for expense reasons.....

now, with some knowledge, i'm saying lsd is the better. they are rebuildable and have more aftermarket options such as tomei, kaaz, and trd to name a few. plus you have more options such as 1, 1.5, or 2 way depending on application and use.

Ditto. I have driven a friends 240 with a welded diff a number of times. You get used to it but I still prefer my KAAZ two way. People usually tend to worry about when they're welded diff will break. But with a good aftermarket lsd you dont have to worry about that. And when it does need a rebuild (which will probably be a long time, hell my stock diff clutch's lasted 19 years, I'm guessing these will last at least a quarter of that) just buy the rebuild kit from the manufacturer and call it a day. The only thing you have to worry about is the oil changes, and mine was fine. Just changed it today and I didnt see any shavings, I've only changed the oil once after initial break in, it just stank realy bad. lol

Get a welded if you prefer. It's all up to preference but I'll stick with my lsd. If I didnt have the money I'd go welded but not for long

hvguy · Post by **hvguy** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:05 am

sounds good.

I'm going for an LSD because of reliability, and I don't think my underpowered engine can push a locked diff.

btw, has anybody ever tried a locker in drifting?

back in the day, I was into offroading, and this was a key element to not getting stuck. And they are simple mechanisms.

also, torsen differentials

which I dont yet understand

heres a pic of a torsen

and here is the mechanism of the POSI-TRACK locker thing.
its called a positive locking differential

I installed one in a dana a while back, very simple and effective

o.g.darkdrifter · Post by **o.g.darkdrifter** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:31 am

If I remember correctly gear type lsd's break easier than clutch type. I'm not positive on this but if I remember correctly due to the constant locking and unlocking that is necessary for road racing and drifting it wears heavily on the metal teeth. Also as where the clutch's in your clutch type lsd would wear the teeth of a gear type will simply break causing more damage. I believe the gear types are more expensive to rebuild as well. I believe the consistency of the unit comes into play as well. I could be wrong about this. It's been a few years. Do they even make lockers for Corollas? lol. I guess if you had a tacoma rear.

hvguy · Post by **hvguy** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:16 am

hmm, good point.

I think they are preferred off road because they lock very well, but unlock on command.

LSD clutch type however does not lock very well under high load.

I see your point though.

o.g.darkdrifter · Post by **o.g.darkdrifter** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:43 pm

Yeah, I thought lockers were manually activated. I guess they would perform similarly to a welded diff. I guess it's just much more simple to have a clutch type lsd. Dont have to worry about locking and unlocking, it just does it for you. lol

Wow I'm lazy.

hvguy · Post by **hvguy** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:28 pm

yeah, after talking to a guy named rick, I'm convinced I want to weld it.

but not before I get a replacement just in case I don't like it.

Post by **CBR_TOY** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:48 pm

rick is persuasive... but he knows what he is doing and talking about. i had no complaints about my welded. just use the right axles.

Overdrift · Post by **Overdrift** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:38 am

I'm against welded diffrentials. Expecially if its a car you drive on the street. Your heating up metals that are heat treated for strength, it just doesn't seem logical to me. If you can drift with a open drift than your not ready for a welded. If you can drift with a open than you should look into a locker if you want that type of setup. A locker will give you the effect with no welding or damaging to the heat treated metals. But you must realize that your entire gross vehicle weight...

Say ae86+driver=2100lbs + one bumb and one rear wheel hopping in the air= all that force to that one axel either accel or decel.

If you have any wheel hop it can break an axel, I've broken two axels from wheel hop without being welded. The ae86 axels are strong, but when you put that much force on them they will break, even with a locker. Alot of you think that you will simply break loose and it will be a smooth drift, but for amatures and begginers that are on a budget, this will only cause more headaches. BUT for a professional with a good power to weight ratio and a decent suspension, a welded can be drifted on all day long with no hassel.

You just have to take in the laws of physics. With a open diff if one tire is taking a beating it will transfer the power...on a LSD it will do the same thing just alot less, normally you can barly tell if its in good condition. But also as I've been told, a LSD on lower powered cars can be a advantage because if you don't have the power it will break the tires loose for a drift and one wheel peel a little when your power runs out, instead of staying constantly 2 wheel peel and feeling like your hitting the brakes when your running out of power.

I say stay away from lockers and welded diffs unless your building a off roading rig. If you want to drift, drift open diff..... show that open diff who is boss. And then save for a LSD or even better mods such as suspension. I'll have to make another thread here soon.

Post by **dr.occa** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:22 am

Overdrift wrote:I'm against welded diffrentials. Expecially if its a car you drive on the street. Your heating up metals that are heat treated for strength, it just doesn't seem logical to me. If you can drift with a open drift than your not ready for a welded. If you can drift with a open than you should look into a locker if you want that type of setup. A locker will give you the effect with no welding or damaging to the heat treated metals. But you must realize that your entire gross vehicle weight...

Say ae86+driver=2100lbs + one bumb and one rear wheel hopping in the air= all that force to that one axel either accel or decel.

If you have any wheel hop it can break an axel, I've broken two axels from wheel hop without being welded. The ae86 axels are strong, but when you put that much force on them they will break, even with a locker. Alot of you think that you will simply break loose and it will be a smooth drift, but for amatures and begginers that are on a budget, this will only cause more headaches. BUT for a professional with a good power to weight ratio and a decent suspension, a welded can be drifted on all day long with no hassel.

You just have to take in the laws of physics. With a open diff if one tire is taking a beating it will transfer the power...on a LSD it will do the same thing just alot less, normally you can barly tell if its in good condition. But also as I've been told, a LSD on lower powered cars can be a advantage because if you don't have the power it will break the tires loose for a drift and one wheel peel a little when your power runs out, instead of staying constantly 2 wheel peel and feeling like your hitting the brakes when your running out of power.

I say stay away from lockers and welded diffs unless your building a off roading rig. If you want to drift, drift open diff..... show that open diff who is boss. And then save for a LSD or even better mods such as suspension. I'll have to make another thread here soon.

i'm going to disagree with you alex. don't mistake 1 wheel donuts and inertial sliding as drifting. i know everyone raves about how bellville ben could do it but that's with momentum behind it aiding that one wheel. besides, it's a 240 so it's not surprising it's easy to "drift" 'em even with one wheel.

anyway, a welded diff is better than its open diff stage. why? because it makes drifting more possible and more fun! better and longer angles! cheap fix until you get the lsd you want.
breakage??? come on, we're drifting hear. expect more than that to break. it's par for the course man. nature of the beast.

i'm no professional and it's not a goal. but if i were to, i'd still weld until i saved up enough for a kaaz 2 way lsd which is almost as severe as a welded.

lockers aren't recommended since the rotational mass will be at higher rpms and not at rock-climbing speeds.

like this thread intended: go welded until you get an lsd? or stay open until you get an lsd?

welded is better than open anyday. if anyone disagrees, than booooo on you.

Overdrift · Post by **Overdrift** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:33 pm

Eh when your a begginer, who cares if you one wheel peel...if it looks like drifting...your probably having alot of fun behind that wheel, and thats the thing that has drawn me into drifting.

Welding only makes your car unsafe to drive on the street, kills twice as many tires, weakens diffrential gears, puts more stress on axels. I know alot of guys that like to drive their corolla's out on the street.

Post by **CBR_TOY** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:16 pm

what else is an open diff good for besides welding? any diff is gonna get abused during drifting be it lsd or welded/open so you might as well weld it. also, it isn't unsafe on the street. you just have to be more aware of your car and tires are meant to be destroyed so why worry about number of tires......

o.g.darkdrifter · Post by **o.g.darkdrifter** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:05 pm

yeah.... My kaaz 2way acts just like a welded on the street. I make a uturn..... it gets happy, I try to bomb through a light on the gas it gets happy, it rains???? :D I freakin love it. It taught me how to pay attention to what the car is trying to tell me real fast. Weldeds are much more aggresive but relatively the same. I would be scared with a brand new driver in a welded diffed rwd car, but if they ahve experience driving rwd they should be fine. Just takes some getting used to.